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  • Mr Major’s Comments about Northern Ireland – 14 December 1994

    Below is the text of Mr Major’s comments on Northern Ireland during an interview held in Belfast on 14th December 1994.


    PRIME MINISTER:

    I care about peace in Northern Ireland. If what had happened in Northern Ireland over the last quarter of a century had happened in Surrey, or Sussex or Suffolk or anywhere else, people would have demanded action. Well I feel just as strongly about it in Northern Ireland as I would if it were anywhere else, it is right on its merits to take this action. Many people said you will not make any progress at all. Well I think they are now looking rather silly. A great deal of progress has been made, we have not vet cracked the problem, we are not there yet and I do not claim that, but I do claim that we have made more progress than most people believed possible, that the atmosphere has wholly changed, that the prospects for achieving a firm settlement for good are there today in a way they have not been in the last quarter of a century and we need to pursue the political process and we need to pursue the economic progress. Never under-estimate the impact of inward investment and domestic investment, creating jobs, creating a future for the young men and women who before just drifted to one side of the argument or the other and was the raw material on which the terrorists operate. Let us have some more economic prosperity and cut that away from them, and that is what today is about.

  • PMQT – 13 December 1994

    Below is the text of Prime Minister’s Question Time from 13th December 1994.


    PRIME MINISTER:

     

    Engagements

    Q1. Mrs. Ewing: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 13 December.

    The Prime Minister (Mr. John Major): This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be having further meetings later today.

    Mrs. Ewing: Does the Prime Minister believe in the principle of referendums?

    The Prime Minister: I have indicated in the House on several occasions that there may be circumstances in which I would support one. Clearly, in the case of Northern Ireland that is so, for I have already announced one.

     

    Q2. Mr. Patrick Thompson: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 13 December.

    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave some moments ago.

    Mr. Thompson: Bearing in mind reports today of an official survey showing that 11-year-old pupils do not have sufficient command of English to answer questions in science and mathematics, and bearing in mind the mounting evidence of the damage being done by the National Union of Teachers’ boycott of tests, will my right hon. Friend urge Opposition Members with influence on that union to urge it to drop the boycott today?

    The Prime Minister: What my hon. Friend says illustrates the importance of regular testing of pupils and equally regular reporting of the results. I welcome very much the fact that most teachers’ unions have now called off their boycott. It is high time that the NUT did the same, and I hope that it will do so.

    Mr. Blair: On railway privatisation, is it right, as the report to the Transport Select Committee states, that the costs of legal consultancy fees and relocation costs for British Rail alone are now £100 million, and that when underwriting and City fees are added in the total cost may be as much as £700 million? Are those figures right or wrong?

    The Prime Minister: They are certainly not figures that I recognise, but if the right hon. Gentleman wishes to pursue the matter I will give him a more detailed answer.

    Mr. Blair: I believe that the £100 million figure was given in a parliamentary answer. Perhaps the Prime Minister will check that. Is it also right, as the report indicates, that if the privatisation targets are to be met, the rail network will virtually have to be halved or there will be savage reductions in the timetable across the service? Can the Prime Minister guarantee that if there is found to be the remotest possibility of those things happening he will cancel the privatisation?

    The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is using yet another of the scare stories which have surrounded the privatisation process for some time. Since the start of the rail privatisation process, there has been no shortage of scare stories; that is just the latest one. As recently as 24 November, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport stated and restated unequivocally that franchise services would be broadly based on the existing timetable. That remains the position.

    Mr. Blair: The Prime Minister has not given that guarantee. If he proceeds with a privatisation which has no popular support, which will put the future of the railways at risk– [Interruption.]

    Madam Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Lancaster (Dame E. Kellett -Bowman) should not be barracking from a sedentary position.

    Mr. Blair: If the Prime Minister proceeds with a privatisation that has no popular support, which will put the future of the railways at risk and, in the process, spend hundreds of millions of pounds which should be spent on providing a better public transport service, will that not show how completely out of touch the Government are with the British people?

    The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is quite wrong. His comments about rail privatisation are precisely the same as the comments that his predecessors made about almost every privatisation that has occurred. Each privatisation has proved a success. The initial costs of past privatisations have been more than outweighed by efficiency and benefits, and that will be the case for rail users as well. The right hon. Gentleman relies on precisely the same scare stories which existed for each privatisation that has occurred. If he seeks further assurance, it will come tomorrow when the franchise director launches the pre-qualification documents. The right hon. Gentleman will then see how wrong he is.

     

    Gibraltar

    Q3. Sir Teddy Taylor: To ask the Prime Minister if he will raise at the next meeting of the European Council the position of Gibraltar within the European Union.

    The Prime Minister: I have no plans to do so.

    Sir Teddy Taylor: As the present appalling restrictions at the Spanish border, with four-hour delays for people and eight-hour delays for vehicles, seem designed to cripple the economy of Gibraltar, and as the European Union seems unable to prevent these illegal blackmail activities, will the Prime Minister give guidance to Ministers to the effect that there should be no further concessions to Spain in the EU until the problem is resolved? Is the Prime Minister aware that it would hearten the loyal people of the rock if he would visit Gibraltar and assure them of the full support not only of the Government but, I hope, of every party in the House of Commons which believes in freedom?

    The Prime Minister: On my hon. Friend’s second point, I can guarantee that we have no intention of deviating from the commitment that we made to the people of Gibraltar in the 1969 constitution. That commitment is there and it will remain. With regard to his first point, we have already made strong protests to the Spanish Government about the secondary checks imposed by the Guardia Civil at the frontier between Gibraltar and Spain. It is very important that the controls should cease and we have made it absolutely clear that the Spanish Government must bring them to an end. They are aware of our views, and we are in contact with them about it.

     

    Engagements

    Q4. Mrs. Ray Michie: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 13 December.

    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Lady to the reply I gave a few moments ago.

    Mrs. Michie: Can the Prime Minister explain how an assembly for Northern Ireland will strengthen the United Kingdom while a Scottish parliament will apparently weaken it? The situations may be different, but surely the principle is the same.

    The Prime Minister: As the hon. Lady graciously admits, the situation is not just different–it is wholly different. A tax-raising assembly is proposed for Scotland, whereas in Northern Ireland an assembly is proposed which will give Northern Ireland proper control over local government matters. That power already exists in Scotland.

     

    Q5. Mr. Haselhurst: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 13 December.

    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave some moments ago.

    Mr. Haselhurst: Amid all the discussions about the European Union in the long term, does my right hon. Friend agree that there is a practical and urgent agenda to try to ensure that the single market is working fairly and openly, so that British companies have a genuine opportunity to compete successfully in civil aviation, energy and other spheres in which there are currently impediments to competition?

    The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right about that and about its importance. At Essen during the weekend it was self-evident that that is an agenda on which Britain is increasingly winning the arguments. There is wide recognition of the fact that the liberalisation of aviation, energy, telecommunications and a range of other areas is vital to Europe’s future competitiveness. A great deal of work needs to be done to ensure that. It must figure very prominently in the Community’s agenda in future, and we will ensure that it does.

    Mrs. Adams: Is the Prime Minister aware of the havoc wrought in the west of Scotland at the weekend by severe flooding in which lives were lost? Is he further aware that the Scottish Office Minister who visited the Paisley area yesterday gave us little comfort? Will the Prime Minister visit the stricken areas and make a statement that adequate funding will be available to reimburse families and local authorities?

    The Prime Minister: I know that the whole House will wish to join me in expressing regret at the loss of life and the very significant damage following the severe flooding in Strathclyde. As the hon. Lady may or may not know, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland with responsibility for industry and local government was able to make a statement about the flooding to the Scottish Grand Committee this morning. He said that grant aid from central Government might be available under the Bellwin scheme.

     

    Q6. Mr. Gallie: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 13 December.

    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave some moments ago.

    Mr. Gallie: Has my right hon. Friend seen the “Scottish Engineering Quarterly Review” issued this week, which shows that orders are up, investment is up, recruitment is up and optimism is strong? Is he further aware that today Jetstream Aircraft at Prestwick announced yet another order? Is that not good news in the run-up to Christmas?

    The Prime Minister: I must confess that I have not seen the journal to which my hon. Friend refers, but I will ensure that it is delivered to me regularly in future. I am pleased to hear my hon. Friend’s good news and delighted to hear about Jetstream. A further order will be another welcome endorsement of the success of Scottish manufacturing.

     

    Q7. Mr. McCartney: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 13 December.

    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave some moments ago.

    Mr. McCartney: The Prime Minister will know that the blood transfusion service is a unique service in the United Kingdom national health service. Last year, the British people gave 2.5 million units of blood freely and saved thousands of lives. Does he appreciate the dismay and disgust at the Bain proposals to privatise the service and close down five regional centres, from Plymouth to Lancaster, with 1,000 job losses? When will the Prime Minister put the national health service before private greed and abandon that proposal?

    The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman knows that the NHS is getting more resources and more funding year after year. He also knows that there are areas which can be dealt with in the private sector without harm to patient care and that where that releases resources for patient care it is economically and medically sensible.

    Mr. Yeo: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the results of the past four general elections show that the good sense of the British people can normally be relied on? Against that background, does he further agree that, if the 1996 intergovernmental conference produced substantial changes in the European Union the use of a referendum might be justified, but that in the intervening period speculation about the type of question to be asked is entirely bogus?

    The Prime Minister: In advance of the IGC, it is extremely difficult to know precisely what the question in a referendum might be. I have said that I am not prepared to close the door on the possibility of one, but, equally, that there are important constitutional matters to be considered and it would be very unwise to make snap judgments as to how to deal with that matter. As I understand it, two days after I stated that last week, it suddenly became the Opposition’s position as well.

     

    Q8. Mrs. Helen Jackson: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 13 December.

    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave some moments ago.

    Mrs. Jackson: According to official figures given to me by the Child Support Agency last week, that body has processed just four claims for compensation in the past 12 months. Will the Prime Minister ensure urgently that the thousands of families who have suffered from the incredible incompetence of that body are fully compensated for their financial and emotional losses?

    The Prime Minister: As the hon. Lady knows, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Security is looking at the child support arrangements. He will be responding to the Select Committee’s report and will make an announcement as soon as the Government have finished their deliberations. Proposals for any changes will be brought forward at that time.

  • Mr Major’s Speech in Belfast – 13 December 1994

    Below is the text of Mr Major’s speech in Belfast, held on Tuesday 13th December 1994.


    PRIME MINISTER:

    My Lord Mayor, My Lord Mayor of London, Mr Secretary, Mr Governor, My Lords, Ladies and Gentlemen.

    Can I firstly extend to you all the very warmest of welcomes but extend that welcome especially to those who have travelled very long distances indeed to be here on this occasion – to Secretary Brown and his very large and very welcome delegation from the United States; to Mr Cherin [phon] who has done such outstanding work in leading the European Commission’s Task Force; to Mr Bonner, representing the Irish government; to the Lord Mayor and many leading figures from British industry and finance; and to all the representatives of seven governments and 181 companies who are gathered here this evening for this particular occasion.

    I will have the opportunity tomorrow to speak about Northern Ireland’s economy at the forum, but I would like for a few moments this evening to sketch out a little of the background, including its international aspects.

    Though I daresay that perhaps a small number of you will be visiting Northern Ireland for the first time, many of you will have been here before, some of you will know Northern Ireland extremely well indeed, but I think whether you are old friends or new friends, you will experience on this visit an entirely different atmosphere right across Northern Ireland. You will I hope see a huge difference from the impressions formed in the past, from the impressions that so many people have had for so many years about what life was like here and what the prospects here were for the people who lived in Northern Ireland.

    We want on this occasion to show you the prospects in which you and your companies could play a part, to your advantage I hope, as well as for the benefit of Northern Ireland as a whole. I can promise you this from my frequent visits to Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland will welcome you with open arms, it will support you and it will do a fine job for you. And I do not frankly think you need take this just from me, ask the many businessmen and other representatives of Northern Ireland at this dinner and at the forum tomorrow, ask other investors who have already taken a substantial stake in Northern Ireland’s future.

    Let me say just a few words about the long pathway to this particular evening. When I became Prime Minister in 1990 I had four objectives for Northern Ireland. Progress in this province would be one of the highest priorities for the government. I agreed from the outset that we would oppose terrorism with all democratic means and would show the tiny minority – for that is what it has always been, the tiny majority engaged in that terrorism – that it would lead nowhere for them, except perhaps to imprisonment. But that of its own was not sufficient, we also needed to show those who supported terrorism precisely what it was that they were missing out on by that support, we would demonstrate that all legitimate aspirations could be pursued peacefully and pursued through the democratic process, that those who had excluded themselves from the process could be admitted to it, provided they abandoned violence, that with or without them that democratic process would move ahead. That was, in substance, the essence of the Downing Street declaration that Albert Reynolds and I signed a year or so ago, and of the government’s political talks with all the constitutional parties.

    I also felt that the British and the Irish governments should try and work together as never before. If we, the British and the Irish government, could reconcile our own differences without compromising our principles we might set an example for both sides of the community in Northern Ireland. We did so with the Downing Street declaration and we hope soon to take a further step by concluding a framework document to help the talks process. That was the course I set. Some would say, some did say rather optimistically, but we have now travelled a long way down that road and I would like you to know that whatever the difficulties that lie ahead, the British government’s commitment to those objectives will remain as strong as it has been from the outset.

    The support of other governments, the support of other countries, will be very significant to us and to the people of Northern Ireland for two reasons in particular. First, terrorism did not just happen in a vacuum, historic grievances were paraded at home and overseas to justify it, in some places during the Cold War ideological connections were made, funds were raised from East, from West, from South, guns and the most deadly explosives were procured. It is crucially important that people around the world should now appreciate precisely what has changed and what has changed most dramatically in the last twelve months or so.

    The Northern Ireland of today, the Northern Ireland of tomorrow, the Northern Ireland that our guests will see on this visit is not the Northern Ireland of 25 or 50 years ago. Northern Ireland today has some of the most stringent measures for fair employment and community relations to be found anywhere in the world, there is a general recognition that a fair deal must be offered to all. But the future of this province depends on healing those rifts which in the past tore Northern Ireland asunder for all too many years.

    Sinn Fein and the political representatives of Loyalism have declared that they wish to enter the political arena as peaceful democratic parties. It is a declaration that people across the communities in Northern Ireland had longed for for more years than they care to remember. And so Sinn Fein and the political representatives of Loyalism are now beginning an historic dialogue with the government about how this should come about and how their weapons and explosives may be safely taken out of commission.

    The overwhelming majority of the people of Northern Ireland seek peace, and as you will see on this visit they are now enjoying peace. I do not myself believe that they would have any sympathy with any group who sought to disturb that peace again. I hope that equally strong pressure to make peace irreversible will come from outside Northern Ireland. People overseas who take an interest in its affairs, wherever their sympathies may lie should continue to speak up for peace, as so many have done to such good effect in the months immediately past.

    They should make clear that there will be no sympathy, and not a shred of justification or support, for any group were any group to return to the violent ways of the past. If I may say so to our guests this evening, by your very presence here tonight you are giving that signal and I am grateful to you. But more important perhaps, I believe all the people of Northern Ireland, on both sides of the community, will be equally grateful to you for that particular signal.

    Secondly this evening I would ask you to look at the economic prospects for Northern Ireland with open eyes. A quarter of a century of terrorism inevitably held back Northern Ireland’s development. Today, whether you are from Britain, the Irish Republic, from other parts of the European Union, from the United States or from the Far East, you can be in right at the beginning of a very remarkable and exciting new phase in Northern Ireland.

    As I shall explain in more detail tomorrow, you can reap the rewards of coming into that new phase very early indeed. I am not asking you to be anything less than hard headed about your business decisions, I would not expect this and I do not believe anyone in Northern Ireland would either. I would only ask you to recognise that here in Northern Ireland there is a society positively bursting with the desire to succeed, to put the past behind it and to exploit its undoubted potential. It is a society which as I think you can see from the many success stories that are apparent today, has achieved a huge amount despite the unprecedented difficulties it faced from the troubles that there have been over the last quarter of a century. Their endeavour to succeed, the endeavour to succeed of all the people of Northern Ireland, has the whole-hearted backing of the British government and of the European Union, and very strong and immensely welcome support from the governments of the United States and other countries.

    We intend to consolidate peace, to consolidate peace by showing what each and every person in Northern Ireland may gain from such a peace. Already, after just a few short weeks and months, the evidence is all around us: in this fine hotel, a hotel which has now shed the scars of past attacks; in other hotels now filling their rooms for the first time in many years; at the airports where extra services and new routes are beginning to appear; and in streets crowded with Christmas shoppers, many coming in record numbers from Dublin and elsewhere in the Republic.

    Ladies and Gentlemen, the government’s vision for Northern Ireland is very clear, very straightforward. There is no equivocation about it, nothing [indistinct] in any way, it is a vision in which both main communities will be able to feel comfortable and threatened by none, where both communities will feel that their aspirations and their identities are recognised and respected as legitimate, where both communities will recognise that they have more in common both by way of history and challenges than separates them, and where perhaps, above all, they have a fair and equitable stake in growing prosperity fairly distributed right across Northern Ireland.

    I am grateful to you this evening for leaving your homes and your offices to come here, at very short notice, for what I know is a very busy Christmas season. I strongly suspect that there is probably nowhere in the world where Christmas will be celebrated more joyously than it will here in Northern Ireland this Christmas. Nowhere will those traditional greetings that we have grown up with and know and love so much, nowhere will the traditional greetings of peace and goodwill have a deeper meaning than they will this year, this Christmas, in this part of Northern Ireland. It will mean for them a great deal.

    With your help this evening, the people who are here, I believe that at long last this season of peace can mark the beginnings of a peace for all seasons in Northern Ireland, for all seasons, for all people, for all time – that is the objective that we are seeking, it is an objective that we have in our grasp if we have the courage, the fortitude and the luck to carry through to conclusion the work that has begun over the past few years. I hope and I believe that we may be able to achieve it and if we are we will be able to look back from that happy time to this occasion this evening and you will be able to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that your presence here this evening, and at this conference tomorrow, will have played an important part in securing that peace for Northern Ireland and that future for all its citizens.

    You are very welcome indeed, thank you for being here.

  • Mr Major’s Doorstep Interview in Northern Ireland – 13 December 1994

    Below is the text of Mr Major’s doorstep interview held outside the Europa Hotel in Belfast, Northern Ireland, on 13th December 1994.


    QUESTION:

    [Inaudible].

    PRIME MINISTER:

    I don’t believe so. I think the peace process has done rather more than just start. Anyone who comes to Northern Ireland and sees what the atmosphere is today compared to just a few months ago simply wouldn’t recognise the place. The opportunity for investment here has always been good. Of course there is a whole range of obvious reasons for investing here. But as the peace process catches hold, the thing that is going to make sure that it absolutely lasts is increasing economic prosperity to remove many of the old grievances which existed. Providing investment is vital.

    QUESTION:

    It’s the chicken and the egg – which comes first – the investment or the peace?

    PRIME MINISTER:

    Peace is coming and investment will entrench it.

    QUESTION:

    You said tonight that nothing will stop you in driving this peace process forward. You said that you would be steadfast. What does it mean in a sentence?

    PRIME MINISTER:

    It means exactly what I said. When I first went into Downing Street I put Northern Ireland right at the top of the agenda. I sat down at my seat in Downing Street. I made a list of things I wanted to do. One of them was to end the bloodshed there’d been in Northern Ireland and lead to permanent peace. We have made a lot of progress. We’re not there yet but we’ve made further progress than most people believed we would make and I think there’s more to come.

    QUESTION:

    Is this the page of history that you want to turn?

    PRIME MINISTER:

    I don’t think it’s a question of turning it for the sake of history, I’d like to turn it for the sake of the people who live in Northern Ireland.

  • PMQT Written Answers – 13 December 1994

    Below is the text of the written answers relating to Prime Minister’s Question Time from 13th December 1994.


    PRIME MINISTER:

     

    Inward Investment, Chester

    Mr Brandreth: To ask the Prime Minister what plans he has to visit the City of Chester to discuss inward investment.

    The Prime Minister: I have no immediate plans to do so. However, I am aware of the success that Chester has enjoyed in recent years in attracting inward investment to the city.

     

    Ministers

    Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Prime Minister (1) how many Ministers there were in the Home Office in 1978; how many there are now; and to what extent the current responsibilities and work of the Department are different from those in 1978;

    (2) how many Ministers there are in the Department of Trade and Industry; how many there were in the Department of Trade and Industry in 1978; and to what extent the current responsibilities and work of the Department are different from those at that date;

    (3) how many Ministers there are in the Department of the Environment; how many were in the corresponding Department in 1978; and to what extent the work and responsibilities of that Department have changed since that date.

    The Prime Minister: This is a matter of public record. The current details of ministerial responsibilities are contained in the Cabinet Office’s “List of Ministerial Responsibilities”, which is available in the Library of the House.

     

    Honours System

    Dr. Wright: To ask the Prime Minister, pursuant to his answer of 2 December 1994, Official Report, column 923, if he will identify (a) the 15 people who have had an honour cancelled since 1979 and (b) the nature of the disrepute in each of these cases.

    The Prime Minister: No. The names have been published in the London Gazette.

     

    Engagements

    Sir Peter Tapsell: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 13 December.

    Mr. Harry Greenway: To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 13 December.

    The Prime Minister: This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House I shall be having further meetings later today.

     

    Nagorno-Karabakh

    Mr. Madden: To ask the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the outcome of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe with particular reference to Nagorno-Karabakh; what further action Her Majesty’s Government propose taking within the UN Security Council in relation to peacekeeping forces in Nagorno-Karabakh; and whether Her Majesty’s Government have been invited to participate in any way in relation to peacekeeping in Nagorno-Karabakh.

    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the statement I made last week, Official Report, 7 December 1994, columns 220-22. In relation to Nagorno-Karabakh, we welcome the outcome of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe’s Budapest summit as a positive step towards a peaceful resolution of that tragic conflict.

    We will fully support the co-ordinated efforts of the CSCE Minsk group and the Russian Federation to work with the parties to the dispute in achieving a political agreement which will make it possible to establish a multinational peacekeeping operation. We will be ready to support appropriate action in the United Nations Security Council when that agreement has been reached.

    We have undertaken to provide a small number of signals personnel for a possible CSCE monitoring mission in Nagorno-Karabakh. Any further contribution would have to be considered in the light of our other commitments, and of the conditions under which a peacekeeping operation was to be established.

     

    Ecclesiastical Appointments

    Dr. Wright: To ask the Prime Minister what is the total number of ecclesiastical appointments for which he is responsible; and if he will list them.

    The Prime Minister: I have already advised the hon. Member of the main categories of appointments, including church appointments, for which I am responsible. But the total number, including those appointments on which I advise Her Majesty the Queen, cannot be accurately calculated since I have discretion in some cases as to how many appointments I make; and in the case of church appointments, some vacancies fall casually and unpredictably to the Crown by virtue of the royal prerogative.

     

    Special Advisers

    Mr. Milburn: To ask the Prime Minister which of the special advisers serving in his office during the last five years were subject to positive security vetting.

    The Prime Minister: All special advisers are currently required to have positive vetting.

  • Mr Major’s Commons Statement on the 1994 European Council at Essen – 12 December 1994

    Below is the text of Mr Major’s Commons statement on the 1994 European Council at Essen, made on 12th December 1994.


    PRIME MINISTER:

    The Prime Minister (Mr. John Major) With permission, Madam Speaker, I should like to make a statement on the European Council at Essen which I attended with my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Council’s conclusions have been placed in the Library of the House.

    The European Council achieved five key British objectives: strong support for the peace initiative in Northern Ireland, including additional funding of £240 million; commitment to an intensified fight against fraud and mismanagement; solid progress on subsidiarity, and it was agreed that next year the Council will complete its review of the existing Community statute book; priority for labour market flexibility and deregulation to make Europe competitive and create jobs; and a strategy to prepare for accession to the Union of the six central and eastern European associate members.

    At the request of the presidency, I briefed the European Council on the peace process in Northern Ireland. There was unanimous agreement for a Commission proposal to provide an extra £240 million over three years to help urban and rural regeneration in Northern Ireland and the border counties of the Republic. I am grateful for the strong support President Delors has given to Northern Ireland in recent weeks.

    I raised the subject of fraud, waste and mismanagement of the budget following the Court of Auditors report. I said that the European Union would not enjoy popular support unless it took vigorous action against these abuses. I made a number of proposals which were agreed by the Council. These were: the Council must ensure that reports from the Court of Auditors are rigorously scrutinised and followed up; each member state must report to ECOFIN, the Economic and Finance Council, on what it is doing to combat fraud in its own country; and agreement should be reached rapidly in Brussels on measures now under discussion–these include a British proposal put forward by my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary which would oblige member states to co-operate and act effectively to fight criminal fraud against the Community budget–and the new powers given in the Maastricht treaty, as a result of British initiatives, to the Court of Auditors, the European Council, the European Parliament and the Commission should be used to the full.

    I made it clear that taxpayers’ money must not be misused. The fight against fraud, waste and mismanagement will remain high on our agenda. That view was strongly endorsed by the Commission and a number of member states, and it echoes points that we have been making for some time in the European Council.

    The European Council confirmed again that subsidiarity–the principle of minimum Community interference–must be a guiding principle of the European Union’s future work, as agreed at the Edinburgh summit. I am encouraged that so far in 1994 there have been only 42 Commission proposals for significant legislation compared with 185 in 1990. But the new Commission must keep up the fight against unnecessary interference.

    Discussion of the economy focused on the need to create jobs. Yet again the policies that we have been following in this country were widely accepted to be right across the European Union. We agreed that Europe must be more competitive. We agreed on the need for more flexible working arrangements for the reduction of labour costs and for better education and training. There was nothing in our discussion to suggest that socialism had triumphed over market liberalism. The reverse is plainly the case– [Hon. Members:– “Test it.”] I will test it with the conclusions, which show that clearly.

    The European Council added three new priority transport projects to the list of trans-European networks agreed at Corfu. Four out of the 14 are United Kingdom projects: the channel tunnel rail link, the west coast main line, the rail route from Cork to Larne and the Holyhead to Felixstowe road link.

    The Essen Council effectively rejected the long-debated proposal for a European Union-wide carbon energy tax. It supported instead the approach which Britain has advocated all along–a flexible framework allowing the member states that wish to introduce a carbon energy tax to do so. We will not wish to do so.

    Enlargement of the European Union has long been a British objective. At the Edinburgh and Copenhagen Councils, the decision in principle to open membership to the six countries of central and eastern Europe was taken. At Essen, leaders of the 15 European Union states, including Austria, Finland and Sweden, met their central and eastern European counterparts. Agreement at the Council on a strategy to draw the six associate members closer to the Union was another important step to help prepare for their eventual accession. On Bosnia, there was strong support for the protection force commanders and for the work being done by the brave men and women whom they lead. They are saving lives and bringing better living conditions to many parts of Bosnia than would otherwise be possible. We agreed that the United Nations protection forces must be allowed by the Bosnian Serbs to get on with their job without obstruction and that they should stay, provided that the risks were acceptable. It was our unanimous view that the enforced withdrawal of UNPROFOR could have disastrous consequences–above all for the people of Bosnia. But we agreed that we needed to plan for all eventualities and to keep in close touch with other troop contributors and interested Governments.

    The European Council gave strong backing to the Contact group’s efforts to achieve a negotiated settlement. The immediate need is for a durable ceasefire as a prerequisite to a successful negotiation. Over dinner, the Heads of State and Government had an informal discussion about the future development of the European Union, taking account of the need for further enlargement. This was the first such wide-ranging discussion I can recall, and it was very welcome. I emphasised the Community’s achievement in helping to bring 50 years of peace and prosperity to western Europe. In squabbles over other matters, that priceless achievement is often overlooked. I also commented on the fact that 40 years ago, the founders of the Community had a broad vision of their objectives many years ahead, and that those objectives had already been exceeded.

    Within a few years, we shall have around 20 members and, some time later, perhaps as many as 27 members of the European Union. The Union is changing beyond recognition. I said that it was time to rethink the Union’s future constructively and I set out the need for realism in the period ahead. That is essential if the European Union is to regain popular support.

    I do not underestimate the difficult tasks the Union faces, but I was greatly encouraged by the general acceptance of the need for flexibility and for substantial changes so that the European Union can successfully meet the challenges that lie ahead.

    Mr. Tony Blair (Sedgefield): I thank the Prime Minister for his statement. I welcome the £240 million economic aid package for Northern Ireland, which was announced last week and agreed at the summit. It is another significant step on the road to peace and a recognition across the entirety of Europe of the historic opportunity to bury old hatreds.

    On Bosnia, while no one can fully understand or understate the magnitude and complexity of the problems, no one can be proud of the European Union’s record in dealing with the break-up in the former Yugoslavia. The inability of the west to agree or enforce clear aims and objectives for its role in Bosnia has contributed to a situation today where our troops are vulnerable, civilians are murdered, undemocratic and violent forces are in command and war crimes are, as yet, unpunished. It is particularly important that the European Union now acts in a concerted way. Will the Prime Minister insist that the economic blockade and political isolation of Serbia will not end until the Bosnian Serbs withdraw from the territory allocated to the Muslim community?

    The security of our troops, whose bravery we greatly commend–I entirely agree with what the Prime Minister said about that–must come first and foremost. With that said, will he continue to impress on all our allies the disastrous consequences of a withdrawal of United Nations troops without a viable peace plan in place, not merely for Bosnia, but for the authority of the UN generally?

    On the economy, may I thank the Prime Minister first for his effusive praise of Mr. Delors at the summit–something that is welcome at least on the Opposition side of the House? In particular, may I congratulate him on his welcome for the Delors paper on job creation? We agree unreservedly with the new emphasis that it places on tackling long-term unemployment and other measures, including intensive education and training; an active re- employment service; flexibility in the organisation of work, to balance family and employment responsibilities; tax rebates and other measures to counter long-term unemployment; equal rights for part-time employees; and special measures to attack youth unemployment.

    I am extremely surprised, however, that the Prime Minister should represent that paper as a success for his views, as it bears out many of the points that we have been making for some time. While the document rightly stresses reducing unnecessary costs and a flexible and adaptable work force, is not the principal difference between the Conservative Government and our European partners, whether Labour or Conservative, that they see such a modern work force resulting from investment in people and technology and view it as entirely compatible with decent standards and fair treatment at the work place?

    If he continues to claim that the rest of Europe is moving his way, why is his Secretary of State for Employment still having to go to the Council of Ministers to veto social legislation? Why does he alone out of all Heads of Government, whether Conservative or Labour, veto the social chapter of fair treatment and work for people in Britain?

    As the Prime Minister made such a play of that, may I raise one aspect of economic and monetary union? The presidency conclusions, which I assume he fully endorsed, say this about such a union: “The new instruments of the” Maastricht “Treaty for strengthening the convergence of our economies are being consistently used in order energetically to advance the European unification process in the economic and monetary fields”. What is the role of the Government in relation to that statement? What steps are they taking, energetic or otherwise? I am sure that that will be of interest to the Opposition parties not merely on this side of the House, but on the other side, too.

    On subsidiarity, may I again welcome the communique’s endorsement of that as the key to democratic legitimacy? Would not the Prime Minister’s support for that principle abroad be more credible if he acted in accordance with it at home in the United Kingdom, instead of centralising power?

    On enlargement, there is no doubt that the actual, and potential, enlargement of the Union is changing the context in which its future develops. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, we fully support the concept of enlargement. Is not the single biggest handicap to widening the European Union and including the eastern European countries, however, the existence of the tariff barriers that keep their goods out and, above all, of the common agricultural policy? Does not the process of enlargement make wholesale and fundamental change to the common agricultural policy not merely desirable but essential to its future progress? Will he confirm that the CAP still adds around £20 a week, or £1,000 a year, to the average family’s food bill?

    Indeed, does not that bear on the issue of fraud? Is not the CAP the main focus for such fraud? While we can all agree with the right hon. Gentleman’s general sentiments and the measures he suggested on fraud, would those not carry greater weight if the Government had not recently and for the second year in succession voted for cuts in the Union’s anti-fraud budget?

    Although the summit was, of course, not without its successes, does the Prime Minister accept that it was low key and uncontroversial in part at least because it identified problems rather than resolved them? The big questions confronting Europe’s future remain. Does he agree that, for those of us who genuinely believe in Europe and Britain’s place at the heart of it, a precondition for further European co-operation is that it is decided through a debate involving the people of Europe, not merely their political elite? The debate about Europe’s future should be open and the Government and other Governments within Europe should be candid about their views. They should seek to explain and justify further progress, rather than simply demand it. In short, is it not the case that the next stages of the development of Europe will come through persuasion, or not at all?

    The Prime Minister: I can agree with a great deal of what the right hon. Gentleman had to say–not least because much of it was what I have been saying for most of the past two years. I am glad to see the attention to detail which the right hon. Gentleman gives to so many of my speeches. Let me pick up on the many points which the right hon. Gentleman raised, starting with his welcome for the £240 million over three years for Northern Ireland, which is a welcome gesture. This is additional money for Northern Ireland which is likely to be extended beyond three years provided that progress is made in the peace process during that period, as I passionately hope it will. It is a remarkable contribution which was unanimously agreed without difficulty at the European Union summit. I am delighted at the Union’s support for the process in Northern Ireland, which has been evident for some time.

    On Bosnia, the right hon. Gentleman was right to say that there has been an inability to enforce peace. When the whole imbroglio started, I sought advice immediately as to what would be necessary to enforce peace. The military advice which I received right at the outset–long before troops of any sort went in–was that to go in and enforce peace, we would need several hundred thousand troops who would perhaps have to be there for a very long period. Even if peace was enforced, there would be no certainty that peace without a political settlement would continue once the troops had left.

    There was a possibility of huge troop commitments in the most alien territory imaginable, with the troops having to stay there even after peace had been enforced unless a political settlement had been reached. It is not possible to enforce peace, and no sensible political or military strategist ever thought that that would be possible. As far as the blockade is concerned, there will certainly be no further sanctions relief, and I can give the right hon. Gentleman that assurance.

    As for the right hon. Gentleman’s remarks on the economy, he would have seen–if he had been present at the debate–the extent to which the debate has changed during the past two or three years. Many of the fashionable shibboleths of two or three years ago have been utterly and completely ditched. The European Union knows that, increasingly in many parts of the Union, it is becoming less competitive compared with the rest of the world. That is less true of this country than others, but it is true across the European Union as a whole. That is becoming increasingly apparent to political leaders, not only with regard to their own economies but to their own unemployment figures as well.

    That is why the Union is turning towards more liberal approaches in terms of economic management and generally greater competitiveness. The whole thrust of what was said–the right hon. Gentleman picks out little bits here and there–was an endorsement of what we have been arguing for in the European Union for many years with increasing success.

    Mr. Terry Lewis (Worsley): They will not be voting for you in Dudley.

    The Prime Minister: Not a lot of people out there say that– certainly not with regard to the policies which the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues advocate.

    On economic and monetary union and the convergence criteria, the right hon. Gentleman may not know that the convergence criteria were originally put in the Maastricht treaty at the insistence of the British Government–not least because they are sensible economic criteria in any event, quite apart from convergence. Convergence is necessary before economic and monetary union could be a practical economic step, apart from its political or other desirability. As of today, there are probably only three nations–of which this is one–which are likely, in the foreseeable future, to meet the economic criteria set out in the Maastricht treaty. Luxembourg already does, and we are one of two others which are likely to. Those criteria are correct in their own right, not just as a means of moving towards economic and monetary union.

    I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s conversion to subsidiarity. [Hon. Members:– “Oh!”] I see the hon. Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen), who is squatting in the aisle, scoffing again at subsidiarity. That is consistent behaviour, because when I first raised the issue of subsidiarity, scoffing was precisely the reaction of the Opposition. They said that we would never get it; that it would never happen; and that it was not desirable. We have got it; it is desirable; it is central to what the Community is doing and every other nation has signed up to it. The Leader of the Opposition has signed up to it, but, alas, there seems to be a split between leader and led on the question of subsidiarity.

    I share the right hon. Gentleman’s view about the desirability of enlargement, not just for economic reasons, but for security and other reasons. He will know that we were the first to advocate enlargement at the Edinburgh summit. That is true of enlargement to include the EFTA countries and enlargement to include central and east Europeans. He will also know that I have repeatedly made clear my belief that the common agricultural policy was under sentence of death, provided that we enlarged to the east, so he did not have to press me on that today. I welcome him on to my ground, yet again, on that issue.

    On the question of anti-fraud measures across the union, the right hon. Gentleman claimed that the budget to combat fraud had been cut. If he looks carefully at that budget, however, he will see that certain capital items that were put there last year have been paid. The revenue to deal with fraud continues at a satisfactory level and it has been agreed across the Community for that purpose. I have a great deal of sympathy for the right hon. Gentleman’s final point about the elite and Governments being out of touch with the views of the electorates across Europe. I pressed that precise view on my fellow Heads of Government in the discussion that we had on Friday evening in Essen. That remoteness has been shown by the difficulties experienced with referendums across Europe and in a raft of other ways. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that further development of the European Union will have to carry with it the support of people across the Union.

    Mr. Graham Allen (Nottingham, North): And their Parliaments.

    The Prime Minister: Of course, self-evidently with the support of their Parliaments.

    Mr. Allen: Not here, though.

    Madam Speaker: Order. This is wasting time.

    The Prime Minister: It is not practical for some enthusiasts across Europe to believe that, because they happen to think it right, everyone else is necessarily going to follow them. There are increasing signs that that is not the case. It should not be the case and I share the right hon. Gentleman’s view about that.

    Sir Peter Hordern (Horsham): Will my right hon. Friend accept advice from the Comptroller and Auditor General on the question of fraud in the European Union? Will he especially consider the proposition that no money should be given from Community funds until any funds from a proven case of fraud have been fully restored and restitution has taken place? Does my right hon. Friend also accept that if there are to be as many as 22 nations, or one day 27, in the European Union, a profound change must take place and that any notion of political union must become ever more distant? Is not it important that national Parliaments, which are the closest to the grass roots of democracy, should remain the natural form of democratic expression so far as we can see?

    The Prime Minister: I agree entirely with my right hon. Friend. On fraud, I shall certainly look at the proposal that my right hon. and learned Friend has made. It is, of course, a first cousin to the proposal agreed at Essen that all the member states will have to report back to the ECOFIN Council on the measures that they are taking in their countries to deal with the problems of fraud. Those measures should cover fraud prevention in the first place and dealing with fraud that arises.

    I see political development in the form of co-operation on an intergovernmental basis, not development in the sense of there being a political union, with political decisions centrally taken.

    Mr. Paddy Ashdown (Yeovil): I welcome the Prime Minister’s statement and, in particular, the progress made in Essen in respect of Northern Ireland and widening the Community. However, does he accept that those people who favour widening European Union also understand, as it seems that he does not, the need to strengthen Europe’s institutions and make them more democratic and flexible if that is to be coped with effectively? In that case, does he realise how welcome it is that the Government should be taking, albeit tentative, steps towards defence integration, especially with the French? Do not the failures in Bosnia, and more recently the worrying situation in Chechnya, make that even more urgent? Will he assure the House that he puts that at the front of the Government’s agenda for the 1996 intergovernmental conference?

    Finally, the Prime Minister has said, rightly, that Britain’s policy on Europe should depend on a widespread debate that involves the people of Britain and the people of Europe. It should not depend on the untidy outcome of an unseemly spat led by rebels in his divided party. It will be greatly welcomed that he is now changing his mind on the issue of a referendum. He has said that there might be circumstances in which a referendum would be appropriate. Will he now tell us what those circumstances would be?

    The Prime Minister: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his support on Northern Ireland and enlargement. He is also right about the European Union itself becoming more democratic, although many people may mean different things when they say it. I certainly think that there needs to be more accountability by the Commission to the European Council. That is the primary democratic focus of the European Union.

    Mr. Derek Enright (Hemsworth): The European Parliament.

    The Prime Minister: If the hon. Member for Hemsworth (Mr. Enright) would do me the courtesy of listening to what I have to say, he might not have had to shout. He could have saved himself some breath. The European Council is made up of members from the individual democratic domestic Parliaments. The European Parliament is not the primary focus for democracy throughout the European Union. As Labour Members were shouting at me a moment ago, not least from below the Gangway, it is here that the primary democratic institution lies, and not the European Parliament. I am interested to see an apparent divergence between the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends on that matter.

    On defence, I think that there is scope for more defence co-operation across Europe. I think that there is a great deal to commend that. It is an aspect that we have been examining for some time, and that we shall continue to examine for some time. I think that it is right on its merits, right for the defence of Europe and right for other reasons. I suspect that that will be an issue in the intergovernmental conference in 1996, although much of it has been developing for some time. We have not generally recognised the fact that we probably have more joint defence co-operation with France than we have had with any other nation in Europe, and perhaps any other nation anywhere, for very many years.

    I made it clear that I did not rule out a referendum. One will have to wait and see precisely what the circumstances are. I think that it is wise to wait and see precisely what the circumstances are. The right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) does not know what will happen in the future, and his past projections of what might have happened today have proved that he does not know what will happen in future. So I have indicated that the circumstances might be appropriate to have a referendum, and if they are, we will.

    Several hon. Members rose —

    Madam Speaker: Order. Those initial exchanges have now taken something like half an hour. I am now insisting that Members restrict the length of their questions to the Prime Minister. I am sure that, for his part, the Prime Minister will respond briskly, so that I can call as many Members as possible.

    Mr. John Biffen (Shropshire, North): May I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the part that he played in keeping the Council meeting in a low key. May I ask one question? In the discussions that took place at the dinner meeting, and which touched on the complexities and challenges of enlargement, how many Heads of State expressed the opinion that the single currency would impede rather than facilitate enlargement?

    The Prime Minister: Most Heads of Government pitched their remarks to what was likely to happen in the next 20 or 30 years, rather than looking at each individual item, so no one directly either supported the necessity for a single currency or specifically objected to a single currency. The debate ranged a good deal wider and a good deal further than that.

    However, I think that my right hon. Friend knows the Government’s position on a single currency. We sought in the Maastricht treaty to retain a freedom for the House to decide at a later date whether it was in the interests of this country to join. I am sure that that is the right position for the House to maintain.

    It is clear that one of the reasons why a single currency has tended to fall away from the standard European debate that we have known so much over the past couple of years is that there is now no doubt in anyone’s mind that the original timetable for a single currency is not remotely likely to be met–it will be a good deal later. Although some people are still flirting with the possibility of a single currency among some countries by the turn of the century, others have their doubts about the desirability of that.

    What is clear now is that, whereas before the Maastricht treaty many people had in mind the concept of a single currency right across membership of the European Union, that is plainly fatuous if the Union is to be extended to 27 members. It will be almost totally unlikely if it has 20 members and extremely unlikely for 15 members. Most people are concentrating on a small core who may or may not decide to proceed. That carries a good deal more with it than simply an economic judgment. If a small core went ahead without the others, it would materially change relationships within the European Union. I apologise to you, Madam Speaker, for that lengthy reply and shall try to obey your injunctions in future.

    Mr. Peter Shore (Bethnal Green and Stepney): We can all welcome the steps towards extending the European Union towards central and eastern Europe, but it is a rather different matter when we turn to the institutional changes or conditions that are referred to as a prerequisite for extending the Union. Is not a phrase such as “institutional conditions” just a code for the further tightening and centralising of the decision-making process inside the European Union?

    The Prime Minister: Coming from where he does on the issue, I understand why the right hon. Gentleman thinks that. But I would say to him that, no, that is not the case. I shall give but one illustration of the sort of thing that we have in mind. Every time nations have joined the European Community in the past, one or two extra Commissioners have been added, which is patently absurd and cannot continue. There are too many Commissioners now and we should cut the number. I fervently hope that that will happen in 1996. Clearly, we shall have to have a smaller number. One of the institutional changes to be discussed is a change of that sort, which I think that the right hon. Gentleman would welcome. I think that he would welcome many others, too.

    Sir Terence Higgins (Worthing): Is it not absurd for those who argue that the authority of the House is being undermined by Brussels to argue for a referendum–an alien concept that is incompatible with a representative parliamentary democracy? In that context, would it not be particularly absurd to have a referendum on a single currency when most people do not know the difference between a single currency and a common currency? In addition, as my right hon. Friend has said, because of enlargement, that is not likely to be an issue for many years.

    The Prime Minister: It is certainly not likely to be an issue for many years. As my right hon. Friend will know, I advocated the principle of a common, as opposed to a single, currency some time ago, and I still believe that that would have been the best way forward. It would benefit business and industry–the prime beneficiaries in terms of the economic advantages of a single currency–without the disruption, both politically and historically, to the domestic currency that has become so familiar and beloved of people across the European Union. I remain of the view that, if it is possible to persuade others, a parallel currency is the right way ahead–I am sure that that is right.

    Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow): Was anything said about sanctions against Libya by either the Germans or the Italians, who do not observe them, in view of the fact that 5,000 British nationals work there and British industry is greatly disadvantaged?

    The Prime Minister: That was certainly not discussed by the Heads of Government and, to the best of my knowledge, it was not discussed by the Foreign Ministers in their meetings.

    Mr. William Cash (Stafford): Will my right hon. Friend say no now to a single currency, given the fact that, under section 2 of the European Communities (Amendment) Act passed last year, if there were a Labour Government with a massive majority, they would put into effect a single currency through the mechanism already provided? Therefore, when my right hon. Friend considers whether there should be a referendum, will he ensure that the referendum takes place before the next intergovernmental conference so that we can ensure that we preserve the very rights that my right hon. Friend mentioned in his opening remarks?

    The Prime Minister: The IGC will have nothing to do with the single currency–it is not likely to be on the agenda at all.

    Mr. Robin Cook (Livingston): Come off it.

    The Prime Minister: It is not likely to be on the agenda–the shadow Foreign Secretary can be reassured about that.

    As for ensuring that a future Labour Government would not take us into a single currency, my hon. Friend’s complete support to ensure that there is no future Labour Government would perhaps be the most agreeable way to ensure that that does not happen.

    I think it right for us to determine what the circumstances are, in the longer term, when the question of a single currency will arise. That must be in our national economic interest. It is why I think we reached the right conclusion at Maastricht: not to sign up now to something in the unknown future, in unknown economic circumstances, and to keep open the option if it is in the economic interests of this country at the time.

    Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe and Nantwich): If the Prime Minister is serious in what he says about power residing in national Parliaments, will he advocate giving the European Committees the power not only to amend suggestions from Ministers but to vote on them on the Floor of the House as a matter of routine?

    The Prime Minister: If the hon. Lady, or any Government, did that, they would make any discussions or negotiations in the European Union almost an impossibility, the more so given the size of its membership, as it widens, which we all want. Whatever the underlying democratic desirability of what she suggests, it would be impractical. It would effectively be a way to kill any activity and almost any progress in Europe.

    Mr. Winston Churchill (Davyhulme): May I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the forthright way in which he fights to defend British interests in the European Union–and on the way in which he survives repeated political assassination attempts by certain quarters of the British media?

    If there were a clear prospect of a transfer of sovereignty away from this country to the European Union, would my right hon. Friend ensure a referendum before such a transfer took place?

    The Prime Minister: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s kind words and for his concern for my physical and political welfare. I am very touched indeed, and I look forward to his thoughts spreading. Constitutional change is not a matter to be taken lightly or trivially. I have said in the past that I do not traditionally favour referendums in a parliamentary democracy, but I recognise that there may be occasions– Northern Ireland was a recent one–when a referendum would be appropriate.

    A referendum has been suggested for two matters: one is the outcome of the IGC; the other is the single currency. We do not yet know the agenda for the IGC, and a single currency is still a long way off, and possibly getting further away. On matters of such exceptional importance, as I have said, a referendum cannot be excluded.

    Mr. Enright: Is not the Prime Minister aware of how incensed Christian Democrats, as well as socialists, on the continent are at his continued attempts to frustrate directives that seek to treat workers as human beings? Does he not realise that the attempt last week by the Secretary of State for Employment to block the directive on building firms that exploit cheap labour has infuriated the general populace on the continent?

    The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is talking absolute codswallop. This country has the best health and safety record in Europe, and he should know that. If there is frustration across Europe, it is likely to be found in the countries where unemployment is still rising because they are not following the policies that we are in Britain, where it is falling.

    Mr. Ray Whitney (Wycombe): Does my right hon. Friend agree that the successes of the Essen summit underline again the benefits of British membership of the EU? Does he share my hope that the British media, just for once, will report those successes fully and honestly, so that our people can understand that Britain’s future does indeed lie at the heart of Europe?

    The Prime Minister: I travel hopefully on the substantive part of my hon. Friend’s question. I wish our membership of the European Union to be a success for this country. Thus far, over the past 20 years or so, economically it has been an immeasurable success. I think that there is no doubt about that, and the European Community, now the European Union, has undoubtedly been a dramatic success for living standards and for security and peace across western Europe. Those are much bigger issues than many of the matters which engage us in trivial and sometimes not so trivial arguments with our European partners. I want our membership to be a success. I intend that to continue, and I have no intention of acting in a way that would damage that.

    Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover): How many more summits does the Prime Minister expect to attend? Did he tell them, including the other Prime Ministers who are also teetering on the brink in the Common Market, that if he had not got rid of those eight Members by removing the Whip, there would have been 34 votes against him and he might not even have made that journey?

    The Prime Minister: Dear, oh dear, oh dear. I think that the hon. Gentleman is aging. I assure him that that was not discussed in the European Union discussions at Essen. To my knowledge the hon. Gentleman has been making remarks like that since before the last general election. Much to his great dismay, no doubt, he has been wrong all the time.

    Mr. Hugh Dykes (Harrow, East): May I congratulate my right hon. Friend on defending the legitimate as opposed to the hysterical interests of the United Kingdom in the European Union? If ours is the most competitive economy, why is it that of the big four we are the only one with a trade deficit? As the pound has been repeatedly devalued since the war, what fantasy are we defending?

    The Prime Minister: If my hon. Friend looks at the growth pattern and in particular the export growth pattern, he will find that we are doing far better than any other nation in the European Union at the moment. As we came out of the recession the fashionable view was that our balance of payments gap would be very wide. It was often advanced by the shadow Chancellor in his moments of gloom–indeed, he has nothing but moments of gloom–that, as we emerged from recession, the balance of payments gap would widen and widen. It has, of course, narrowed and narrowed, and the reason for that is our competitiveness.

    Mr. Donald Anderson (Swansea, East): Is it not an exercise in self- delusion for the Prime Minister to conclude from this inconsequential summit that our partners are moving on to his ground? Surely the reality is that France and Germany and others are moving ahead behind the scenes with economic and monetary union proposals, and that at some stage he will have to choose between pandering to those behind him, whose paternity he has doubted in the past, and the interests of the country.

    The Prime Minister: If the hon. Gentleman wants to look at self-delusion he should look in the mirror. As for the summit being inconsequential, I refer to the £240 million for Northern Ireland, the fraud commitment, developments on subsidiarity, deregulation and competitiveness, the strategy on enlargement, and the historical impact of having another six nations attending the European Union summit. If those are inconsequential, heaven help us from what the hon. Gentleman thinks would be consequential. On monetary union, I suggest that the hon. Gentleman compares some of the more recent speeches by European leaders with those of two years ago. He might, for example, look at Mr. Balladur’s recent speech and at what President Mitterrand had to say at our joint press conference in Chartres. If he had done that, he would be better informed and would not have asked that question.

    Sir Teddy Taylor (Southend, East): In view of the continued uncertainty in the fishing industry, would the Prime Minister care to clarify the statement by Mr. Gonzales in Madrid this morning that he was overjoyed at what he saw as a crucial breakthrough over fishing? Is it true that he forced this issue on to the agenda, that a crucial breakthrough was achieved, and that he got what he came for? Does the Prime Minister accept that, when such statements are made by foreign Prime Ministers, and particularly in the context of our fishing industry, it is helpful to have the issue clarified and a statement made so that the whole House knows what is going on, or whether a statement is a load of rubbish?

    The Prime Minister: I have not seen that remark by Prime Minister Gonzales, but it is not entirely unknown for Prime Ministers abroad to make statements for domestic reasons– [Interruption.] That does not, of course, apply to British Prime Ministers. It applies occasionally to Prime Ministers elsewhere who do not find themselves subject to the same rigorous questioning in their Parliaments as we do in ours. Indeed, I must say that some of my fellow Heads of Government could scarcely find their way to their Parliaments with a guide dog.

    On the point about fishing, it has been agreed that the new rules must lead to no increase in effort, including for the Spanish fleet. There was no great breakthrough, no great change, and the issue will be debated in the House later this week.

    Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham): That last insult to every Prime Minister in Europe really takes the biscuit. More seriously, if, as we know, the Prime Minister cannot speak for his party but claims that at least he speaks for his Cabinet, why is there not a single Europhobe Cabinet Minister sitting on the Front Bench with him today?

    The Prime Minister: Dear, oh dear. I am not really sure why the hon. Gentleman bothered to ask that question and it certainly does not merit a reply.

    Sir Wyn Roberts (Conwy): Does my right hon. Friend accept that the undoubted successes that he achieved at Essen, which were grudgingly welcomed by the Leader of the Opposition, will be warmly welcomed in many parts of the country? He should be congratulated on his part in achieving them.

    On the economic front, is it not a fact that last week Mr. Delors described the policies pursued by my right hon. Friend and his predecessors as ultra-liberal economic policies which he was happy to thwart with socialism?

    Have not Conservative policies been well and truly vindicated as the only possible policies to be pursued in Europe to reduce unemployment and create jobs?

    The Prime Minister: Not only do I believe that to be overwhelmingly the case, but I believe that that is the view of most of the people who attended the Essen summit.

    Mr. Peter Mandelson (Hartlepool): As the Prime Minister is in candid mood today, will he tell us how he would pitch his enthusiasm for a strengthening of the EU’s common foreign and security policy, in view of recent comments by the Foreign Secretary? What institutional changes within the EU would be required to allow such a strengthening?

    The Prime Minister: A common foreign and security policy in the European Union is a relative novelty, following the Maastricht treaty. It is still in its infancy. We think that it can easily be further developed, but on the basis of co-operation, not qualified majority voting. Therefore, it would continue on an intergovernmental basis, but based on co-operation.

    Mr. Jacques Arnold (Gravesham): I welcome the announcement on the trans-European projects, especially the funding for the channel tunnel rail link. Not least, it will fund some of the environmental improvements already agreed. May we have an assurance that European environmental funds will not be excluded from further environmental improvements in Kent?

    The Prime Minister: I think that I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. Of course, I cannot guarantee that more funds will necessarily become available. I do not know whether they will or what priorities will emerge, but they will certainly not be artificially excluded.

    Mr. Llew Smith (Blaenau Gwent): Has the Prime Minister read the report in The Times today, which states that the summit decided that job security and welfare benefits should be reduced to cut the queue of 17 million unemployed? If the report is true, why did he not mention it? Can he explain how cutting job security and welfare benefits will increase employment?

    The Prime Minister: I do not know precisely what The Times is referring to–

    Mr. Smith: Here it is.

    The Prime Minister: I am not quite that long-sighted. I did not read that report, but I suspect that it is an extrapolation of the argument that unless we are competitive we will lose jobs. That has been happening across the whole EU, where 18 million to 20 million people are unemployed. If the number continues to rise, it will be an extremely serious long-term problem for the EU. The number has been rising almost consistently since the 1950s as we have become progressively less competitive. I suspect that the article which the hon. Gentleman has in mind indicates the need to retain competitiveness across Europe to ensure that more people are put back into work.

    Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough): May I congratulate my right hon. Friend on what might be described as a dull and businesslike meeting at Essen?

    Will he confirm that quiet confidence at such meetings will achieve what this country needs: enlargement, competitiveness and subsidiarity?

    The Prime Minister: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend about that.

    Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North): It was a difficult one, was it not?

    The Prime Minister: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend’s wise words on that subject, and he is right to stress them. The hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) might have put it differently, but I prefer my hon. Friend’s formulation.

    Mr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South): In his reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore), the Prime Minister suggested that the institutional conditions before enlargement were largely mathematical–matters such as seats. Has not the presidency, in the form of Chancellor Kohl and his friends, advocated increasing the powers of the European Parliament? Does the Prime Minister agree, therefore, that even if his Government do not believe in increasing those institutions’ powers, other members of the reflections group at the 1996 conference probably will?

    The Prime Minister: Yes, some of them will certainly want more powers, as the hon. Member for Hemsworth (Mr. Enright) said earlier, although I was not entirely sure whether he was in favour of or against them.

    Mr. Enright: In favour.

    The Prime Minister: He is in favour of them on this occasion–good. So some people will argue for that in 1996. The illustration that I gave the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) was just one example of the sort of matter that will be discussed in 1996. One could give others. I have no doubt that some will argue for changing the powers of the European Parliament. There will be a range of proposals, but whether they will be agreed is a separate matter.

    Mr. David Harris (St. Ives): Will my right hon. Friend take the opportunity to refute completely the allegations and suggestions made by the Labour and Liberal Democratic parties that a backstage deal that will do down our fishing industry was stitched up at the summit? Will he assure the House that, at the Fisheries Council meeting next week, which is particularly vital to south-west England, we shall retain our position and robustly defend our fishermen’s interests?

    The Prime Minister: No backstage deal has been done. We have succeeded in setting aside the complex solution put forward by the Commission in September, which was not in the interests of British fishing. Instead, the Council agreed in its conclusions that a non-bureaucratic solution would need to be found. We shall continue to consult the fishing industry. Our objectives remain to ensure the following: that British fishing interests are protected; that only necessary measures are agreed; that fishing effort should not increase; and that the ability to take quotas is uninhibited.

    Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West): Before it develops into a story throughout Europe, would the Prime Minister care to rethink the gratuitously insulting words that he offered his colleague Prime Ministers on their inability to know where their Parliaments are, not to mention his insult to guide dogs? Other Prime Ministers may have their Parliaments under greater control than he has his own. Why does he object to the European Parliament having greater democratic powers? Why should it not be the democratic institution for Europe? After all, its members are elected as well, and national Parliaments seem incapable of getting democracy into the European Union.

    The Prime Minister: I hope that the hon. Gentleman’s words will gain wide currency. If he implies that he wants a significant movement of authority from this House to the European Parliament–

    Mr. Tony Banks indicated assent.

    The Prime Minister: I note that the hon. Gentleman is nodding. He therefore wants a significant movement of powers from this House to Europe.

    Mr. Skinner: No.

    The Prime Minister: There seems to be slight dissent from other Labour Members.

    Mr. Skinner: We may disagree, but at least we all have the Labour Whip. [Interruption.]

    The Prime Minister: Perhaps the difference is not so slight. There is a fundamental split between not just Opposition Members but left-wing Opposition Members, with Opposition Front-Bench Members no doubt sitting uneasily in the middle. Thank heavens that that sort of thing only happens there.

    Mr. Michael Spicer (Worcestershire, South): I agree with the tone of much that my right hon. Friend said, particularly in respect of the European Commission, Parliament and Council. However, I believe that my right hon. Friend said that a single currency is unlikely to come about in the near future. Is not that difficult to square with the treaty, which states that a single currency must come about by 1 January 1999? Was my right hon. Friend implying that the treaty must be amended, so that the timetable will not be fixed?

    The Prime Minister: Originally, in 1972, there was agreement on a single currency by 1980. That patently did not happen because neither the economic circumstances nor the political will were right. It is certainly the case that the economic circumstances will not be right for 1997. It is extremely improbable that the right economic circumstances will be widespread in the Union in 1999–and they, too, are written into the Maastricht treaty as a necessary precondition for a single currency. That certainly applies to a European Union of 12, 15 or whatever number of states. It is conceivable, though no one yet knows, that a smaller group of member states might be ready by 1999. Even if that were the case, they would need to consider carefully the implications for the whole European Union if they adopted a single currency when the others– whether or not they wanted to go ahead–were not economically in a position to do the same.

    Mr. Andrew F. Bennett (Denton and Reddish): The Prime Minister reported that the summit agreed to abandon the proposal for a carbon tax. Did the summit reaffirm commitment to the Rio targets? If so, how will the British Government meet their commitment?

    The Prime Minister: A European Union conference on environmental matters will be held in Berlin in the near future. The summit touched on environmental matters only in general because it agreed that those matters and the Union’s position at the Berlin conference should be discussed at the Environment Council next week.

    Mr. George Kynoch (Kincardine and Deeside): I welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement. Does not it demonstrate the United Kingdom’s great influence on European affairs? Does my right hon. Friend agree that it would be disastrous for all parts of the United Kingdom if that single, strong voice were put at risk–as it surely would be under Labour’s proposals for constitutional reform?

    The Prime Minister: That is undoubtedly the case. I have forcefully expressed my views on that issue in the past. If the United Kingdom did not have a single, unified voice in the European Union, it would not have the same force of argument. That does not apply exclusively to the Union, because it would also be the case in the United Nations, G7 and every other international forum where Britain currently sits at the top table. A divided United Kingdom, perhaps leading to parts of it being separated, would not allow it to retain that position.

    Mr. Barry Jones (Alyn and Deeside): Did the Prime Minister raise at the summit the difficulties confronting the British aerospace industry? Did France and Germany raise with him the need for the British Government to purchase the future large aircraft? I hope that they did. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that my constituents, who manufacture the European Airbus, are terrified that the Government will buy Hercules and not place orders for the FLA?

    The Prime Minister: No, the British aerospace industry was not discussed–although it is, of course, important. Much of the present Hercules fleet will need either substantial refurbishment or replacement. We must consider whether to go wholly or partly for refurbishment, buy new planes now, or buy some new planes now and develop the future large aircraft. Those matters are under active consideration and no conclusion has yet been reached.

    Mr. Tim Smith (Beaconsfield): Is my right hon. Friend aware that there will be a warm welcome for the additional funds destined for Northern Ireland? Did not President Delors take a particular personal interest in the Northern Ireland peace process? Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the funds will genuinely be additional and directed at areas of greatest economic and social need?

    The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right. From the moment of the Downing Street declaration, President Delors has been particularly helpful in regard to developments in Northern Ireland. I am very grateful to him for the personal effort that he has put in, and the personal part that he played in ensuring that this substantial package of extra assistance for Northern Ireland and the border counties of the Republic would be made available. It will be used for projects to promote reconciliation, encourage economic growth and expand job opportunities.

    Mr. Harry Barnes (Derbyshire, North-East): Is it not disappointing that nothing was done at Essen to tackle the democratic deficit? Should not powers move to the European and national Parliaments, and away from secret bodies such as the Council of Ministers?

    The Prime Minister: I am not sure that I would describe the Council of Ministers as a secret body. No one who attends its meetings would regard them as at all secret. Given that everyone holds press conferences immediately after the meetings, that conclusions are published, that some of the meetings are open nowadays and I will answer questions about them — as, no doubt, will others — I do not think that they are terribly secret. I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman is on the strongest ground.

    Several hon. Members rose —

    Madam Speaker: Order. We shall now move on.

  • Mr Major’s Comments on the European Union – 10 December 1994

    Below is the text of Mr Major’s comments on the European Union, made during an interview given in Essen on Saturday 10th December 1994.


    QUESTION:

    [Mr Major was asked if the decisions on the substantive issues of the European Union had been delayed].

    PRIME MINISTER:

    No, I don’t think so at all. What is the biggest European issue of all? The biggest European issue is whether we can continue to sustain the recovery and get people back to work and that increasingly has happened.

    What is very noticeable in the debate that takes place on European matters now as far as economic matters are concerned is that it is a debate increasingly discussed on British terms. The sort of agenda we have set out over recent years is becoming an agenda accepted widely across Europe. That most certainly was not the case when I first started coming here four years ago – it is the case now.

    QUESTION:

    [Mr Major was asked if other EU countries were prepared to move sedately towards joining the single currency].

    PRIME MINISTER:

    I don’t think they expect to move sedately towards it and if it isn’t discussed because it is generally accepted I am bound to say that hasn’t been the case in previous years as you know; it has been the substance of speech after speech, comment after comment. It frankly isn’t now; it has hardly been mentioned on this occasion; it has not been on the agenda and I think most people now accept – all of them will accept in private – that the time-scale they set out in Maastricht is a time-scale that is not going to be met. That is no surprise to me, it is no surprise to Britain; we have said that continually from the outset.

    QUESTION:

    [Mr Major was asked if there should be a working assumption that there would be a single currency by the end of the century as Leon Brittan had suggested].

    PRIME MINISTER:

    I think most people who have any administrative responsibility like to have a working assumption. I think there is a distinction between a working assumption and whether that assumption becomes reality.

    QUESTION:

    [Mr Major was asked if should offer a referendum on the single currency, as the Euro-sceptics would want].

    PRIME MINISTER:

    It isn’t a question of what the Euro-sceptics want, it is really a question of what is the right decision to take about how to deal with a decision of that magnitude. It is some way away. I have made it expressly clear that I have not ruled out the prospect of a referendum but there are many constitutional implications for that, one needs to think about it; it is a long way away. We don’t know what the circumstances will be.

    There is a whole range of things to be considered before one decided whether or not it was appropriate to have a referendum. There is no need to rush that fence; it isn’t imminent. We have both agreed that this has gone back in time, hasn’t come forward in time, so of course that option is there and of course that option must be considered, I haven’t ruled it out.

  • Mr Major’s Joint Press Conference with the Chancellor and Foreign Secretary – 10 December 1994

    Below is the text of Mr Major’s joint press conference with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Kenneth Clarke, and the Foreign Secretary, Douglas Hurd, held in Essen on Saturday 10th December 1994.


    PRIME MINISTER:

    I do not think there is very much doubt that this has been an especially productive and rather good humoured Council, it has addressed a number of substantive issues that are of real concern to people right the way across the European Union. I daresay one or two souls might be a little disappointed that we were not able to provide a row on this occasion of any sort, but it has been extremely good humoured and I think we have made a lot of progress on a number of issues. I hope the lack of a row is not too great a disappointment for anyone.

    We have just come from a working lunch with the six leaders of the Central and East European countries. We started getting to grips at Essen over this weekend with some of the practicalities of the next enlargement, we have agreed effectively on a route map towards full accession for the East Europeans. From now on the European Council will meet the Eastern associates once a year and so will ten of the other Councils dealing with a whole range of issues, some of those will meet more than once a year, most probably twice.

    The enlargement process, a process that we have argued for in the United Kingdom for a very long time has now started, and I think that is very good news, not just for the countries that will be joining the European Union but for people right across Europe. The benefits of extension – peace, stability and prosperity – the benefits of spreading those right across the continent, is a prize very well worth having.

    We spent a while discussing Bosnia and so did the Foreign Ministers, and we agreed that our current efforts to secure a negotiated settlement need to be reinforced. We proposed, and our partners agreed with us, that we should beef up the teams monitoring the border between Serbia and Bosnia, we would like to have 200 monitors there and we are now up to round about three-quarters of that total. What we have to be sure of is that the sanctions are biting hard on the Bosnian Serbs.

    Secondly on Bosnia, let me say a word about the humanitarian and peace-keeping effort. Ground troops from a number of countries, including many European countries, not just those in the Contact Group, are continuing to risk their lives in Bosnia in order to save the lives of the people who live in Bosnia. That effort should continue for as long as possible, for as long as practical, for as long as they can actually safely undertake the job for which they were sent. And in return we expect the aid convoys to be readily let through to the people who are in need of medicines and food and whatever else may be on those convoys.

    Thirdly, we discussed the negotiating process itself. The United Nations is working, has been working for a long time, to try and secure a durable ceasefire and the Contact Group is striving to bring about a political settlement. None of us was under any illusion whatsoever about the difficulties that still lie ahead, but it would not be right to give up hope while there is a credible hope of success. If, of course, the parties make it impossible for the protection forces to do their job, or if the risks to the protection forces become intolerable, then a different circumstance would arise and we must plan together against that possibility whilst hoping it will not occur.

    We agreed on full consultation between all the countries contributing ground troops and we agreed that none of those countries would withdraw unilaterally from former Yugoslavia. If withdrawal at some stage should prove unavoidable, and of course it could, we hope not, but it could, the promise from President Clinton of United States troops to cover that withdrawal is very welcome indeed. But I should emphasise again that our view is that UNPROFOR should continue its humanitarian role for as long as it seems safe and secure for it to do so.

    Let me say a word about Northern Ireland and the events relating to it that we discussed here at this summit. We are just emerging in Northern Ireland from 25 years of terrorism, we are now entering a crucial period in the peace process, we are seeking to turn an encouraging ceasefire into a lasting peace. One of the things that can help us succeed is the support that we have had from our colleagues in the European Union. The active support has been tangible and I would like particularly to thank the President of the Commission for his personal commitment to the peace process.

    From the start, Jacques Delors recognised the significance of the Downing Street Declaration and all that has subsequently flowed from it. I believe that peace will bring a far better life to all the people in Northern Ireland, so I particularly welcome the very substantial programme agreed by our partners to provide a boost to improving living standards in Northern Ireland, 300 million Ecu, 250 million sterling over a three year period, part of it in the south but over 80 percent of it in the North of Ireland is an excellently timed signal ahead of the investment conference that we will hold in Belfast next week.

    We devoted quite a lot of time yesterday to Europe’s economy and to a particular aspect of that, and that is job creation. The Council endorsed the plan drawn up by the ECOFIN Ministers for member states. I supported the suggestion for an advisory body in European competitiveness and suggested that for it to be most effective it should include major Europe businessmen with practical experience in running multinational companies across Europe.

    What is most striking, was very striking indeed, in the discussion we had yesterday about the economic discussion, is that virtually all of the themes that we discussed, which only three or four years ago were regarded as eccentric British preoccupations – liberalisation, freeing up markets, reforming welfare systems, reducing the cost of jobs – all of those are now in the mainstream of European thinking and were central to the debate that we had. The Community now agrees, I think without any contradiction, that the problem of unemployment is not best tackled simply by protecting those at work, the aim must be to help those out of work by creating new growth and new jobs. We agreed a programme for trans-European networks and a list of projects. These big, frankly rather imaginative, infrastructure projects are natural territory for private sector initiatives and I am very pleased that out of the top 14 priority projects four of them will be in the United Kingdom, including the Channel Tunnel rail link and the West Coast mainline,

    I made clear that there were two things, above all, which I believed, which Britain believed, had undermined public support for the European Community over recent years and obscured much of the good work that it has done. Firstly, with those areas where the European Community has unnecessarily intruded into the daily lives of its citizens, that causes frustration not just in the United Kingdom, you can trace that frustration right across Europe if you go and see for yourself what is happening there and speak to the politicians and other people there. We are seeking to deal with that through subsidiarity, it was something much mocked when we first introduced the concept, it is now widely accepted and it has been given another substantive push by the German Presidency.

    The new provisions we secured in the Maastricht Treaty and the new rules we got agreed at the Edinburgh European Council, are now being put to good effect. We are at last beginning to see even more tangible results from that, that is certainly evident as far as legislation is concerned. In 1990 the Community passed 185 new laws, there were 75 last year, it is down to only 39 so far this year. Next year the European Council will review the existing Community statute book as well.

    And secondly, I raised the question of fraud across the European Union. People, in my view quite rightly, get extremely angry when they see their money, their taxes, being mis-managed, being wasted, or perhaps worst of all, being drained away in criminal fraud. Again, the Maastricht Treaty contains, and again at our insistence, new provisions empowering the Commission, the Council and the auditors to tackle this more vigorously, and also requiring member states to do so. I proposed a series of specific actions at this European Council, got support for them from colleagues, and you will see them reflected in the conclusions that no doubt you all have in front of you.

    Let me finally say a word about the atmosphere here at Essen. It was, as one would have expected, a well prepared, well run Council and our informal sessions have been perhaps among the most thoughtful and forward-looking that I could remember in the four years or so that I have been attending them. We were looking ahead last evening to the possible union of 15 years, 20 years from now, when we might have perhaps as many as 27 members of the European Union. We began to consider, not reaching conclusions, but consider in a brainstorming session what our goals for the Union might be over the next 40 years, not the inward looking centralising approach of yore, but an open, peaceful, prosperous, united Europe of nation states. It was a very productive discussion indeed. I believe that is the direction that most people in Europe would wish to go and I think it is the direction in which we are most likely to go. So I found that a very rewarding session last evening and there was a general wish that we should return to that conversation again in the future, and I very much look forward to that.

     

    QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

    QUESTION (John Palmer, The Guardian):

    Prime Minister, you have referred in the Bosnian conclusions to the urgent reinforcement of the ICFY mission, I asked this question of Kinkel earlier on and I am still not clear from what he said or what you have said, what has made the reinforcement so urgent, is President Milosevic not to your satisfaction, yet sealing this frontier, I don’t know whether you or the Foreign Secretary can throw light on the use of this word urgent.

    PRIME MINISTER:

    The Foreign Secretary spent some time discussing it, so I will ask him to say a word in a moment. What we are anxious to do is to avoid any leakage at all. I do not think it is a question of President Milosevic’s good intentions being in question, but we do wish to ensure that there is no leakage across the border and for that reason we would rather like to see more monitors there. But the Foreign Secretary discussed this at length, not just with Klaus Kinkel but with his other colleagues, so he might wish to add something to that.

    FOREIGN SECRETARY:

    President Milosevic told us on Sunday that the border was in effect closed. There are some people, particularly in the United States, who question that, so there is a matter of fact which has to be established, it is very important to establish it because the present relief of sanctions for President Milosevic, the opening of the airport and the allowing of certain events, is for 100 days and its renewal depends on everybody being satisfied that he is doing his best. So it is a matter of fact which needs to be established. It is best established by having an adequate number of qualified people on the ground. We have got people, we, the Americans, the Nordics, are doing our bit there, there are other countries who have not contributed or only contributed one or two.

    What I was pressing, and what is now in the conclusions, is let us get on with this, let us establish as a matter of fact whether or not the border between Serbia and the Bosnian Serbs is adequately controlled and the movement of [indistinct] goods properly enforced.

    QUESTION (Peter McMahon, Sunday Mirror):

    Chancellor, when you were asked about Europe less than two weeks ago you dismissed talk of a referendum as not an issue. Today in his interview the Prime Minister says he is not ruling one out, so clearly it is an issue, why is there such a difference between the two of you?

    CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER:

    I think the Prime Minister has made our position perfectly clear, I do not think there is a difference between the two of us. These are important issues and no doubt the question will keep coming up from time to time. But the main thing is to prepare a clear position for the inter-governmental conference in 1996, although we do not yet know whether we will have a serious agenda and to have a serious debate about the merits and demerits of economic and monetary union if that should ever come about, and I think that is where we are and that is what we keep saying.

    QUESTION (Robin Oakley, BBC TV):

    Could I ask the Prime Minister and perhaps the Foreign Secretary to take just a moment out from questions on the summit to comment on the death of Sir Keith Joseph?

    PRIME MINISTER:

    Let me perhaps comment first. I was extremely sad to hear the news about Keith Joseph. I think he was probably one of the foremost Conservative thinkers since the Second World War and his contribution to Conservative thought and Conservative philosophy is perhaps unequalled in that period. He was also from my knowledge of him, though I confess I didn’t know him as well as I would have wished to have done, an extremely nice man, a very gentle man in every sense of the word. He was a very senior figure in the party when I first went into the House of Commons and I can only say that on every occasion I spoke to him as a wholly new, untried, unknown Member of Parliament I received nothing from him but courtesy and help and I found that was the way he treated everyone whomsoever they might have been. He is a very great loss.

    FOREIGN SECRETARY:

    I would add a word to that. He was, as the Prime Minister said, a very kind man and he was totally without self-importance. He didn’t mind at all what kind of headlines he got. He was passionately anxious to worry away at a subject until he got to the truth of it. He was very interested in first principles, very interested in the thinking behind a decision and you need people like that in politics and he will be badly missed.

    PRIME MINISTER:

    Can I just say Robin, the Chancellor probably knew Keith better either than Douglas or I so he may wish to comment.

    CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER:

    I did, Prime Minister, work with him from time to time over the years and got to know him quite well. All I would add to you very justified tributes is firstly that Keith was, as you know, really concerned about political issues. He thought about them a lot, he worried about them in fact, he was anxious to get things right and the driving motive behind his approach to politics was his concern to actually address social issues as well as economic issues which he thought were being neglected, but he personally was quite consumed in politics because of his concern for its effects to a degree unusual even in any dedicated politician.

    Secondly, I confirm entirely what the Prime Minister said about his personal behaviour outside politics. Because he was on the right, there was a slight tendency to think he might be something of a hard man; he could not have been further removed from that; he was one of the nicest men in politics of any political complexion that we had.

    I can remember many examples where he actually went out of his way to help colleagues who had fallen out of favour in one way or another; I remember one time in particular many years ago when there was a Conservative Member of Parliament who actually got sent to prison and that really put him out of baulk altogether, and the only man who approached that former Member of Parliament to make sure that something was being done for him when he was eventually released was Sir Keith Joseph who hadn’t known him very well, and he was the only Member of the House of Commons who took any interest in that man’s fate and his family. There were many other instances of that kind of personal action that he took so I regarded him as a very intelligent man, a very concerned man and personally a very nice man indeed.

    QUESTION (German Handelsblatt Newspaper):

    As far as Europol is concerned, the conclusions are setting a new deadline for ratifying the Convention until the next summit in Cannes. Are you willing to raise the latest objections and are you willing to include the combating of terrorism in the agenda of Europol?

    PRIME MINISTER:

    The principal difficulty in reaching an agreement on Europol hasn’t lain with the United Kingdom of course; there has been a very substantial difference of opinion in what in the jargon has become known as the “architecture” between France and Germany; that was the principal impediment at the recent Home Affairs meetings and indeed at this summit and there was agreement that we would try and reach a conclusion upon that by the time of the Cannes summit.

    There are a number of areas below that where we still have some concerns but I have no doubt that we will be able to resolve those over the period of the next few months and it was for that reason that I fully supported the fact that we would agree now that we would reach a conclusion by the Cannes summit and I am sure we will be able to do that. I am sure we will be able to get our way through that.

    QUESTION (Christopher Lockwood):

    We have heard calls for a serious debate on the substantive issues behind economic and monetary union and I wonder whether we might have a little of that now. Prime Minister, in a situation where the convergence criteria are met and where the pound in particular meets them not according to the Commission’s own forecast and the Treasury’s – that is not something that is completely out of the question by 1997, certainly not by 1999 – do you think that in that situation it would be of benefit for sterling to be part of the EMU?

    PRIME MINISTER:

    I think you have to look at what the position is going to be right the way across the European Union and I have no intention of making that judgement at this stage now. I can certainly agree with you that in terms of the Maastricht criteria it is possible, perhaps probable, that the United Kingdom will be one of the first countries actually to put themselves in an economic position where if they wish they would be economically able to move to a single currency. I think that is becoming increasingly apparent and the Chancellor may wish to add to that but how widespread that would be across the European Union I think is a matter for conjecture at this stage. We can only see, I think, three nations at the moment who look remotely likely to achieve that. Some of the strongest advocates of a single currency don’t look remotely as though they are going to be in a position economically to enter into one for a very long period indeed, but I don’t wish to judge what the debate will be at a late stage.

    I think it is right for us to examine what the implications would be, it would be folly not to be prepared for that. I don’t know at some stage in the future whether a number of nations will decide to go ahead with a single currency. There are those who say rule it out definitely for all time now. I understand their philosophical opposition but nobody at this moment can be certain what the position will be if a number of states decide to go ahead at some stage in the future and what its economic impact might be on the United Kingdom if they did. We have to consider that and study that and that is what we will need to do.

    QUESTION (Christopher Lockwood):

    [Inaudible].

    PRIME MINISTER:

    It isn’t remotely likely to be half in 1997, Christopher, there are not likely to be any in 1997. There might conceivably be a few countries ready to go in 1999, it is a moot question whether there will be enough, but certainly I know of no single judge who believes there is remotely likely to be any form of economic and monetary union in 1997 and if there is anyone who thinks that, I promise you I don’t agree with them.

    CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER:

    Jacques Delors produced for us in our discussions a table showing the likely progress of members towards the Maastricht convergence criteria in 1996. At the moment, Luxembourg is the only one that complies. The only two that the Commission forecast to be within the criteria by 1996 are Germany and the United Kingdom, in fact the United Kingdom rather more so than Germany and that is because we are the two strongest recovering economies in Europe, in fact we are recovering at the moment rather better than the Germans and we are therefore returning to a healthier position very quickly and we are performing in accordance with those convergence criteria because the criteria in themselves, which the Prime Minister of course helped negotiate at Maastricht, comply perfectly with sound Conservative Party economics and they are based on the general direction in which our economic policy is already going in the United Kingdom.

    I agree with the Prime Minister; whatever the Maastricht time-table may say, I don’t believe a majority of the member states is likely to be able to get that time-table in the way they have set that. What we have negotiated is a position whereby whenever the others might contemplate, any number of them, economic and monetary union, we the British have a choice, our own choice, a choice for our own Parliament. We will decide yes or no according to our judgement of whether it is in the British interest to be involved in any development of economic and monetary union or not.

    The things you have to ask if and when that ever arises are is the way it is being planned and worked out likely to be good enough? Is it going to work? We have the experience of the snake, we have the experience of the ERM. I wouldn’t want us to go into any form of economic and monetary union that was not going to work and was going to come to an unfortunate end again. Then you have to ask would it or would it not improve the operating of the market and the trade between those countries that went into economic and monetary union by removing barriers and obstacles to trade between them? Would it or would it not reduce the risks of competitive devaluation ever breaking out amongst the countries involved? But I don’t think the whole thing is feasible until we have got convergence on the grounds outlined in the Maastricht Treaty and I think it would be folly for any members of the European Union to go in for economic and monetary union until they have converged on low inflation, low public deficits, low debt-to-GDP ratios and a good competitive situation in their industrial markets. As it happens Britain is the one that is best advanced towards getting back to that position and Britain is the one that has most completely reserved its own position to say yes or no to economic and monetary union if anybody raises it.

    PRIME MINISTER:

    We have 15 members of the European Union now, we are likely to have 20 or so some time after the turn of the century in the early years of the next century. Another decade after that we may have 27 members of the European Union. Plainly it is a fatuous proposition to assume that in any time-scale like that you are going to have a single currency across 27. I think it is improbable to the point of being dismissed that you could have a European Union across 15. The serious point at issue I believe it whether a smaller number of nations would be prepared to move forward and then they would have to consider – if they found they were economically able to do meeting the criteria the Chancellor set out – what the impact on the rest of the European Union would be if they did so and what is apparent is that although there has been a lot of consideration and a lot of discussion about the politics of that over the past five or six years, there hasn’t been in my view remotely enough consideration of the economics of that and that is the first primary issue that needs to be considered.

  • Mr Major’s Doorstep Interview in Essen – 10 December 1994

    Below is the text of Mr Major’s doorstep interview in Essen, held on Saturday 10th December 1994.


    QUESTION:

    Prime Minister, how has the summit gone for Britain and has there been any progress on Bosnia?

    PRIME MINISTER:

    I think the summit is proving extremely successful and I think that will be apparent in the conclusions on fraud, the conclusions on Northern Ireland and the whole tenor of the debate that we have had about economic matters. The whole agenda is much more attractive to the British point of view that it has been in previous years, so I am very pleased about that.

    QUESTION:

    Was any progress made on Bosnia last night?

    PRIME MINISTER:

    The Bosnia situation is as it was. We have made the position clear for some time and there is no dispute about that amongst colleagues here. We very much wish the United Nations protection forces to stay there and to continue their humanitarian work, but there is a general recognition that it might become impossible for them to do so, if it does become impossible they will have to leave. I hope very much that that will not be the case, we would like them to stay, we would like to see progress on the diplomatic front, we would like to see an end to the fighting, an end to the killing and a proper settlement and I think that is a view universally held at this summit.

    QUESTION:

    Has the success of the fraud initiative allowed you to put troubles at home behind you now?

    PRIME MINISTER:

    I hope so. The fraud initiative certainly has been successful, as I think you will see when you read the conclusions later.

  • Mr Major’s Doorstep Interview in Essen – 9 December 1994

    Below is the text of Mr Major’s doorstep interview in Essen, held on Friday 9th December 1994.


    QUESTION (Judith Dawson):

    Prime Minister, what are your feelings about the talks today in Northern Ireland?

    PRIME MINISTER:

    I very much hope they will be successful, but this is the first day only, they will be discussing the agenda today, then we will arrange a date for the next meeting. I think it is very important but I think one ought not to pin too much on today.

    This will be the first of a whole series of talks, today with Sinn Fein and of course in a week or so with the Loyalist Paramilitaries as well.

    QUESTION (Nick Clark):

    As far as you are concerned, these are talks about talks and they do not have any further significance, Sinn Fein say they are to do with getting themselves into the political process?

    PRIME MINISTER:

    The two things are the same thing. They are talks about getting Sinn Fein into talks with the other constitutional parties, so both those remarks are right, they are talks about talks but they do lead to getting Sin Fein into a proper constitutional process, that is correct.

    QUESTION (Nick Clark):

    Do you think it is possible that Bosnia might overtake events here in Essen and that you might be distracted from other matters?

    PRIME MINISTER:

    I think it is possible that we will discuss it, I think it is almost certain that we will discuss it. I do not think it is going to overtake events here but I would be very surprised if it was not discussed. But we have a pretty heavy agenda on this occasion, we want to look very carefully at the White Paper on employment. When you strip away the masking tape of other things, what is still bothering people right the way across Europe is the creation of more jobs, so we will clearly discuss that. We will spend some time looking at fraud, that is very important, I have some proposals to put to colleagues about fraud.

    QUESTION (Nick Clark):

    Are they new proposals?

    PRIME MINISTER:

    Some suggestions as to how we might deal with the problem of fraud and mis-management across the Community. It is a matter of great importance to us, but not only us, other nation states feel just as strongly about it as well and of course there are a range of other issues we will discuss.

    QUESTION (Judith Dawson):

    Are you feeling happier about events back home?

    PRIME MINISTER:

    I am certainly pleased the way the economy is recovering, there is no doubt about that. We are now beginning to see not just the occasional good figure but a whole run of figures that are consistently good. The economy is growing, it is growing quite securely, the figures we have seen again this week on exports, on trade, on industrial production, all exceeding the expectations of most market commentators, and unemployment thankfully is continuing to come down.

    QUESTION (Judith Dawson):

    Do you think the problems in your government and party are behind you now?

    PRIME MINISTER:

    I very much hope so. But you see, what the public do not like is disunity. There has been a great deal of difficulty that people have had to face as we have had to get out of this recession, as has everyone else. That has involved very painful decisions that were necessary in the national interest, decisions that were unpopular in the short term and will be unpopular until people can see for themselves that they were right, it is beginning to become apparent that they were right but it is not yet apparent to everybody up and down the land. I think they want people in Parliament to stop squabbling and get on with the things that concern them, and they are right.

    QUESTION (Nick Clark):

    Could this be a turning point this week, could it be the end of the troubles, the start of a slightly brighter era for you?

    PRIME MINISTER:

    Anyone in politics who ever predicts turning points should have learnt from experience. I very much hope so. I am in no doubt about the turning point as far as the economy is concerned, that is certainly so. Despite all the shot and shell, the European Community’s Finance Bill went through the House of Commons in a single day and I think that exposes how much of the argument about it was really heavily over-cooked, in a single day the whole of the bill has gone through, that is now behind us and I am delighted it is behind us. In front of us is to ensure that the economic recovery remains on track, that people continue to see growing prosperity in the country. Those are the things we should concentrate on.

    QUESTION (Nick Clark):

    And fewer causes for rebellion perhaps in the future?

    PRIME MINISTER:

    Politics is about expressing ideas I but think those ideas have to be expressed within certain parameters. The points about disunity are points the public do not like. I do not think the public like artificial squabbles in Parliament, either within parties or between parties, they seem irrelevant to most people in their everyday lives, and they certainly do not expect the governing party to squabble within themselves in the way they have seen in the last year and they have expressed that view quite clearly in by-elections, and I understand that view, I think it is time it is stopped.

    QUESTION (Nick Clark):

    And those things are damaging to you?

    PRIME MINISTER:

    Of course they are damaging, I have never made any secret about the fact that they are damaging. We are there to carry out a particular job in the interests of this country, that is what the government are doing, that is what Conservative MPs were elected to support, I look to them to support it.